Letter from my atheist friend - Part II
If you are new to this thread, please read:
1. Kerala Varma's letter questioning the necessity of God and the evils of organized religion - Letter from my atheist friend - Part I.
2. My response to his letter - Responding to an atheist - Part I.
3. His response to my letter - (this post!).
4. My response to his response - Responding to an atheist - Part II.
(Whew!)
Once again, in the words of the one and only Kerala Varma:
--
Proof of God: Much of the atheist-theist argument is not centered around nomenclature. When the question is whether there is god or not, it's not nature or love or a value system or electric waves that we talk about. It's the supreme supernatural being that the believers tout as God. It's whether there is such a being up above to whom you can pray to get your stuff done, who controls every little thing in this world, who is responsible for whatever happens to you and others and who can be approached through the various religions and places of worship. A good person being god or godly, god qualities being god-like and nature's divine wonders are just figures of speech, not manifestations of divinity or spirituality. Experiencing god could be the result of delusion as a result of deep unsuspecting belief.
The ancient gods are no more: My question is simple. If there's a god who created the universe and all the animals in each stage of evolution (an oxymoron here!), then why did we give up the original set of gods and start with new ones every time a new faith is established.
Religion deceives the gullible: The quacks selling remedies for everything from acne to balding do not represent science but commerce. And the believers get more easily conned by the quacks and godmen than atheists
Anyone who claims to represent god is a fraud: When you talk of people filled with compassion and try to associate religion and faith with good values and service, there is a falsification here because a person's values or willingness to serve or help are not the product of his faith or god. Those who get money in the name of god spend a part of it in social service. Those who spend a part of their hard earned money on helping others do not do it in the name of god or religion.
Religion says, true for me – may not be true for you: Please don't confuse it with different remedies for illnesses or different perceptions about divinity or spirituality. The simple issue here is the verifiable specifics of the system of questioning and enquiry on the one side and the requirement of belief on the other.
Science is the new God: Science is not god or new religion. My view in simple terms is that there is no god and all religions practise faith-based falsehoods, both of which are not needed in our lives. Science is the sum total of human knowledge. The opposite of faith or belief or religious living is not science but atheism.
Children shouldn’t be taught religion: Even by the longest rope I can't agree with your view that the best preparation for a child is a strong grounding of Religion –including a view of all the religions of the world as they get older. Just like they are taught the history of the world, music and various forms of art, they may be told about different religions, how the idea of god originated (fear, imagination etc) and how students should overcome divisive thoughts and develop scientific enquiry and scepticism.
Atheism is the answer to the world’s problems: I didn't say that atheism is the answer to world's problems. Atheism does not create as many problems as religion creates. And atheism is less expensive and less time consuming and more convenient than the alternatives.
In a recent essay, Gautam Adhikari says, (QUOTE) "Scholars of religious philosophy broadly agree that the world’s first atheists probably emerged in ancient India. For instance, in the recent book Imagine There’s No Heaven: How Atheism Helped Create The Modern World, Mitchell Stephens says that the first known atheist may have been Ajita Kesakambli in the 4th or 5th century BCE. Asked by a king to give his view on religion, Ajita said: It is an empty lie, mere idle talk, when men say there is profit therein. He rejected the claim that some blessedly enlightened beings have understood both this world and the next.
Stephens goes on to list the arguments of the Charvakas, a sect of non-believers in India, who rejected the supernatural and insisted: “Only the perceived exists.” However, India today, along with America, has the largest proportion of religious believers, perhaps nearly nine out of 10 persons, reveal recent global surveys. In deeply religious America, those who don’t believe in any particular religion plus atheists and agnostics are today said to total close to 20% of the population.
A second happy feature of atheism and non-belief is that all need for an exclusive religious identity is obviated. Every devotee of any religion defines a path to truth at the exclusion of every other religious view. Implicit, and sometimes explicit, hostile difference and potential violence are ingrained in religious belief no matter how each belief-system asserts peace and tolerance towards all. Religion divides us. Secular humanism emerged in modern civilisation as an antidote to religious division. A humanist advocates a sober, even humble, understanding of nature and the current extent of knowledge. A humanist celebrates uncertainty to advance incrementally our understanding of life, its origin and the future of the human race.
Writes British philosopher A C Grayling in his book The God Argument: Having intellectual courage to live with open-endedness and uncertainty, trusting to reason and experiment to gain us increments of understanding, having the integrity to base one’s views on rigorous and testable foundations, and being committed to changing one’s mind when shown to be wrong, are the marks of honest minds.
Religion offers quick palliatives to our existential anxieties. Life is harsh, you’ll be happy in heaven; or, the gods know what they are doing even when things go grievously wrong; it’s all for the good, piety will save you." (UNQUOTE)
I have one request to you. Can you explain to me in simple words without using jargon (1) What exactly is meant by God? (2) How does God operate? (3) In what way does God influence happenings in your life and in the world? (4) Is there any relationship between God and religions? (5) if yes, why did God allow so many religions, confusing humans leading to conflicts and violence?
(c) Kerala Varma
--
Here is my response to this letter. Do write in with your comments. Thanks for reading!
1. Kerala Varma's letter questioning the necessity of God and the evils of organized religion - Letter from my atheist friend - Part I.
2. My response to his letter - Responding to an atheist - Part I.
3. His response to my letter - (this post!).
4. My response to his response - Responding to an atheist - Part II.
(Whew!)
Once again, in the words of the one and only Kerala Varma:
--
Religion does not encourage questioning: You said it Deeps. Swami Vivekananda questioned because he was almost an atheist. The Upanishads keep admonishing the seeker to question everything, but today the religious Hindus (not the liberals) would brook no dissent. Jesus questioned the god of the jews; but the followers of Jesus would crucify you if you questioned their religion.
Proof of God: Much of the atheist-theist argument is not centered around nomenclature. When the question is whether there is god or not, it's not nature or love or a value system or electric waves that we talk about. It's the supreme supernatural being that the believers tout as God. It's whether there is such a being up above to whom you can pray to get your stuff done, who controls every little thing in this world, who is responsible for whatever happens to you and others and who can be approached through the various religions and places of worship. A good person being god or godly, god qualities being god-like and nature's divine wonders are just figures of speech, not manifestations of divinity or spirituality. Experiencing god could be the result of delusion as a result of deep unsuspecting belief.
The ancient gods are no more: My question is simple. If there's a god who created the universe and all the animals in each stage of evolution (an oxymoron here!), then why did we give up the original set of gods and start with new ones every time a new faith is established.
Religion deceives the gullible: The quacks selling remedies for everything from acne to balding do not represent science but commerce. And the believers get more easily conned by the quacks and godmen than atheists
Anyone who claims to represent god is a fraud: When you talk of people filled with compassion and try to associate religion and faith with good values and service, there is a falsification here because a person's values or willingness to serve or help are not the product of his faith or god. Those who get money in the name of god spend a part of it in social service. Those who spend a part of their hard earned money on helping others do not do it in the name of god or religion.
Religion says, true for me – may not be true for you: Please don't confuse it with different remedies for illnesses or different perceptions about divinity or spirituality. The simple issue here is the verifiable specifics of the system of questioning and enquiry on the one side and the requirement of belief on the other.
Science is the new God: Science is not god or new religion. My view in simple terms is that there is no god and all religions practise faith-based falsehoods, both of which are not needed in our lives. Science is the sum total of human knowledge. The opposite of faith or belief or religious living is not science but atheism.
Children shouldn’t be taught religion: Even by the longest rope I can't agree with your view that the best preparation for a child is a strong grounding of Religion –including a view of all the religions of the world as they get older. Just like they are taught the history of the world, music and various forms of art, they may be told about different religions, how the idea of god originated (fear, imagination etc
) and how students should overcome divisive thoughts and develop scientific enquiry and scepticism.Atheism is the answer to the world’s problems: I didn't say that atheism is the answer to world's problems. Atheism does not create as many problems as religion creates. And atheism is less expensive and less time consuming and more convenient than the alternatives.
Finally, your point about how religious people are sensitive, they take offence to atheism: No atheist has ever killed anyone for believing. It's been always the believer who kills or punishes non-believers and other-believers.
In a recent essay, Gautam Adhikari says, (QUOTE) "Scholars of religious philosophy broadly agree that the world’s first atheists probably emerged in ancient India. For instance, in the recent book Imagine There’s No Heaven: How Atheism Helped Create The Modern World, Mitchell Stephens says that the first known atheist may have been Ajita Kesakambli in the 4th or 5th century BCE. Asked by a king to give his view on religion, Ajita said: It is an empty lie, mere idle talk, when men say there is profit therein. He rejected the claim that some blessedly enlightened beings have understood both this world and the next.
Stephens goes on to list the arguments of the Charvakas, a sect of non-believers in India, who rejected the supernatural and insisted: “Only the perceived exists.” However, India today, along with America, has the largest proportion of religious believers, perhaps nearly nine out of 10 persons, reveal recent global surveys. In deeply religious America, those who don’t believe in any particular religion plus atheists and agnostics are today said to total close to 20% of the population.
Without entering into complex debates on definition or any argument over the existence or non-existence of a divine prime mover and cosmic godfather, we could select two aspects of atheism that, to my mind, are eminently humane - the absolute separation of church and state and a view of life that emphasises the here and now and provable. In other words, it won’t present science fiction or pseudo-scientific claims as science fact. This fits neatly into a secular view of life. In that worldview, assertions of bigoted charlatans, who masquerade as scholars, that ancient Indians knew about stem cells, motor cars and computers should either find no place in modern discourse or must be vigorously dismissed. Atheists and non-believers are well positioned to challenge such idiotic obscurantism. Secular science forms today’s foundation of knowledge.
A second happy feature of atheism and non-belief is that all need for an exclusive religious identity is obviated. Every devotee of any religion defines a path to truth at the exclusion of every other religious view. Implicit, and sometimes explicit, hostile difference and potential violence are ingrained in religious belief no matter how each belief-system asserts peace and tolerance towards all. Religion divides us. Secular humanism emerged in modern civilisation as an antidote to religious division. A humanist advocates a sober, even humble, understanding of nature and the current extent of knowledge. A humanist celebrates uncertainty to advance incrementally our understanding of life, its origin and the future of the human race.
Writes British philosopher A C Grayling in his book The God Argument: Having intellectual courage to live with open-endedness and uncertainty, trusting to reason and experiment to gain us increments of understanding, having the integrity to base one’s views on rigorous and testable foundations, and being committed to changing one’s mind when shown to be wrong, are the marks of honest minds.
Religion offers quick palliatives to our existential anxieties. Life is harsh, you’ll be happy in heaven; or, the gods know what they are doing even when things go grievously wrong; it’s all for the good, piety will save you." (UNQUOTE)
I have one request to you. Can you explain to me in simple words without using jargon (1) What exactly is meant by God? (2) How does God operate? (3) In what way does God influence happenings in your life and in the world? (4) Is there any relationship between God and religions? (5) if yes, why did God allow so many religions, confusing humans leading to conflicts and violence?
(c) Kerala Varma
--
Here is my response to this letter. Do write in with your comments. Thanks for reading!
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